Obama warns of unremitting doom unless stimulus package passes fast

I still have to ask, "Where is this money coming from?"  The taxpayers?  The taxpayers don't have this much money.  The bailouts were taxpayer money from the future!  Our children's and our grandchildren's.  Now they want our great-grandchildren's, too.

This is just devaluing the dollar further.  It floods the world with useless paper and one of these days we are going to wake up and find ourselves on a whole new currency.  Won't that be fun trying to figure out. 

Doesn't it give you that "warm, fuzzy feeling" when politicians rush to get something done because of a "crisis"? 

Like they really get things right when they sit and talk about it.  Hey, maybe if they rush and not think about it, something right just might happen.  Will be curious to see how much "pork and earmarks" are in this package.  If they "fix current infrastructure problems", i.e., bridges, roads, etc. it might work.  If they spend the money on "new infrastructure projects", pork and earmarks will be part of it.  That's the only way they'll get passed.

Our entire political system is a joke and the government will own us before it is over with.

Is this the big "Change" we voted for?  Not even inaugurated and talking about dumping another $800 billion down the toilet.  This man will prove to be the same idealistic cowboy Bush has been but coming from the far left instead of the far right.  Does this man believe that this crusade of mass spending tax payer dollars which haven't even been collected yet change anything?  Now that Mr. Obama is set for life financially, he sure forgot about the little people who will be floating this bill for the rest of their lives.  I still think that compared to McCain, Obama was the better candidate which doesn't say much, but I'll admit I was dooped.  He actually made me believe that he would lead differently and more responsibly.  The egg is on my face.

government owns everything anyway. Don't believe me, just stop paying income taxes, and property taxes, and vehicle registration taxes, etc.

We have a new President but unfortunately we also have the same group of tired hacks in congress and the senate.  Most haven't had a new idea since 1976 but we reelected them and they will send out a large percentage of our future in the form of grants.  we need to make sure the money is well spent and assess what is done objectively, I know for partisans on either side this will be really tough as you folks usually beleive anything your party does is brilliant despite the results.  This is too important for propaganda and partisanship to dominate the discussion. 

We don't have a new president yet.  We have a president-elect.

I have said from the start of this that the only way to get the economy going again was;

1. lowering every mortgage holders interest to 3% fixed( since we own freddie and fannie) this is where any government should go.

2. Keep gas at 1.50 a gallon with no new 10 cent tax on it!( other companies have contract with suppliers) we as anation can not get a guarantee from the Arabs and other that will supply us at 50.00 a barrell for 24 months! All that talk of the reserves going away i guess wasn't so! at least no yet maybe in 400 years or so.

The consumer and taxpayer who own homes will take that savings and put it back in the economy for home improvements etc... there is not another segment on our nation that will be able to give the economy a boost than that.

All this road construction bridge repair will not help a thing! leave that to the state and the money they receive for their gas tax! where have they been spending that money?

It is obvious that the government has more programs more committees to watch and look over things that do not matter. this is simple economics's that a fifth grader can figure out. do not let them led us around by the nose rings like cattle.

brain food

Yes, Obama's Change is simply "Throw more taxpayer money out the window than Bush."

Disgusting.

Greg,

Give Obama a chance to waste $6T ($5T deficit plus $1T Iraq War) like Bush. Clinton had huge deficits when he took office.

The fundamental problem is nearly thirty years of Washington's misguided direction. America should have invested in America's future instead of consumerism. We really don't need the latest cheap product from China. We are also learning about our misplaced belief and trust in monetary policy and the Fed.

Well I thought that King Obama was going to fix the melt down of world's economy and especially that of  the USA . Now he put the onus on the backs of greedy old men in congress. By golly, now they know how to spend your tax dollars wisely-not. All that Obama has to do is to use the"R" word and the spine of the all white senate will turn to mush! 

"It is not just another public works program,"

Yeh, right. It's a nice payback to the Unions for their political support, but the Unions only represent about 7% of the non-public workers in this Country. What about the other 93%, or is Obama and Congress going to require that everyone join a Union so everything we buy costs twice as much?

And the Bush stimulus package of last year only cost about $100 Billion and resulted in a very respectable growth in Gross Domestic Product of 2.8% in the Second Quarter of 2008, so why do we need $1.2 Trillion now. Sounds like massive Social Engineering under the guise of fixing "the worst recession since the Depression".

The current "Misery Index" (Combined Unemployment Rate (6.7%) & Inflation Rate (Minus -1.9%)) is a total of 4.8%. Under Clinton, it got as high as 10.56%, and under Jimmy Carter it got as high as 21.98%. That was the Real "worst economy since the Depression".

Sounds like Obama is following in the footsteps of Franklin Roosevelt, where Roosevelt's "Social Engineering" projects cost a fortune and led to 8 additional years of Depression. I'm fearful that this will lead to the massive "stagflation" of Jimmy Carter.

Certainly is "Change we can believe in".

 As a Surgeon the situation we have now is very similar to problems I have with some patients.  After severe surgery pain medicine is prescribed with directions to take the medicine every 4 hours.  It never fails I will have people call and tell me they are in severe pain and the first question I ask is did you take your medication as prescribed?  The answer I usually get is not exactly I was not in pain so I skipped a dose or two.  I have to explain to them that it was prescribed every 4 hours to prevent pain and if they waited until the pain started before they took it we are no longer preventing we are chasing the pain.

  That is exactly what we have going on in the Country right now, we are not preventing we are chasing.  When you chase it takes more than it does to prevent.  We can argue whose fault it is (Democrat or Republican) all day but that is not going to take away the pain.  We are going to have to catch up then take the medicine on time to prevent. 

  Some of you want to pretend it will go away but it won't healing takes time.  There are others that don't care as long as they are not having the pain yet.  People we are injured and it has to be addressed.  An open wound will not heal it will only get worse to the point it can not be cured.

  Yes, it is going to cost us but the longer we wait the more it is going to cost.  I do not know if this experimental surgery is going to work but I do know if it is ignored the patient(our Country) is going to get much worse.

  Those of you that have visited third world Countries you see beggars on every corner and have to guard every possession you have because they have no other means to eat.  We do not want to get to that point.

Roy Wilson:

You wonder if everyone is going to be required to join a union.  I heard something about something called "card check".  It seems that if workers are trying to get the union into a company and the workers take a vote for or against the union coming in, the union will have representative/officials there to watch you as you vote.  Your vote will no longer be secret, so if you vote against the union, they will know you did it and know your face.  This sounds like what they do in some socialistic countries.  After they know who voted against them, they then try to "persuade" you in some unpleasant way.

I hope this "card check" thing does not happen.  It is not fair. 

As a manager of a restaurant and of many other restaurants in the past every kitchen in the southern united states is employed by illegal immigrants. And i have personally looked at there paychecks and they DO NT PAY FEDERAL TAXES. If the do not pay the S.S. or Medicare than the employer is also not matching what they should have been paying. Which means we have millions of immigrants and employers not paying the taxes they should. If they were employing true citizens that paid taxes that would be a huge jump in taxes. Not only would we not have a S.S. problem but we would have a surplus in those areas. About 15% of labor in restaurants comes from kitchen while only 4% comes from the front where the servers, hosts, and bartenders are. The kitchen is where restaurants pay there labor and also where they are getting away with tax evasion. on a slow day we pay the kitchen $300.00 in labor and the front we pay about $80.00. The $80 is getting taxed (your white server), the $300 (your mexican cook) is not being taxed. Thats alot of tax dollars that could help in this time if they are given citizenship. If not and they are deported it is alot of job creation. Either way something has to happen.

You know what?  I don't want hear people drawing parallels on this proposed stimulus plan and that ridiculous $700 billion bail-out plan!  There is a teeny, tiny difference here!  That "bail-out" was for the same GREEDY corporations whose executives helped create the mess we are in now!  DO NOT compare giving the same thieves who robbed middle-class America of billions of dollars even MORE billions, to the hopeful idea that maybe it would have been a better idea to give it back to people who actually NEEDED IT, not to mention belonged to in the first place!

This whole situation is so infuriating I don't know whether to scream or cry.  There are thousands upon thousands of AMERICAN PEOPLE losing their homes, their life savings, or maybe starving right now so a handful can live a life of COMPLETE EXCESS.

Got to love the scare tactics. Show me a help wanted section that has no jobs and I will see a need for government handouts.

eel8

"I hope this "card check" thing does not happen.  It is not fair. "

I agree. The essence of Democracy is the secret ballot. I guess voting in Union elections is not supposed to be "Democratic", but mandatory, like it was under Communism, with only one side on the ballot.

This man need to get a life.  I see him as trying to accomplish for the US what HE didn't have in life, before rising SO quickly to where he is today.

He has NO business putting himself out in the public eye this quickly. 

I pray that the package DOESN'T pass and that he  (along with Pelosi and Reid)  has a reality check that he IS NOT the Messiah for the United States of America.

Wow! And we had the chance to elect MItt Romney--a man with expertise in the macro-economics. He warned throughout his campaign that we were in financial deep waters and that he knew on the grand scale "what makes jobs come and what makes jobs go." He also pointed out that taxing the rich a la Obama is a serious mistake as it takes assets out of their hands with which they build comanies that hire the rest of us as in "There are not wage earners without wage payers!" Unfortunately many Americans are still bigoted and stupid so here we are with neophyte Obama--the one who says in his book he was doing his bong throughout college so he must have missed out on any study of macro economics or any other kind for that matter. We have elected an affirmitive action president because of his race who is utterly without qualifications to handle this economic or international crises (as can be seen by his total lack of comment on the incident in Gaza).

Soon Mr. Obama will not be able to just vote "present." He will have to act or make decisions by inaction. So far his theory that we can fix this economy by pouring money down the rabbit hole fails to impress.

As far as using his middle name, Hussein, he now does that himself so I guess it is once again ok. Do you know of his tie to the other Hussein as in Saddam? Google "Rezko/Auchi/Obama" for the real story of how Rezko apparently got the money to purchase part of the property with Obama's home on it the week before from Auchi--Saddam Hussein's bag man and another convicted fraudster. The three of them met (documented) at the Ritz Carlton in Chicago. Our president to be has too many unsavory's in his past--people he will have to do favors for or pay off (with your dollars) to keep them quiet.

Eel8, Roy Wilson ect,

Using flawed and manipulated figures from cherry picked data is the same thing the Bushes and the Carthage Foundations of the world do to advance their case, in a different era  it was propaganda or a fifth column. The misery index as an economic snapshot has a purpose as an average over a period of years it is idiotic. It penalizes an administration that inherits a bad set of economic circumstances and falsely represents one which inherited a good economy and worsened it. Carter inherited inflation and unemployment around 8.5%- 8.7% , these were more than double what Nixon/Ford inherited along with having doubled debt and spending. He was handed the worst economic bag of snakes since 1932.  Carter created jobs decreasing unemployment to 5.8 in 1980 but never controlled inflation up to 13.5 in 1980. Reagan did the opposite unemployment reached as high as 10.5%. Clinton handed Bush the best economic numbers in 60 years and he has devastated our economy. Bush came in with emloyment at 3.8 and inflation at 3.4 unemployment will double before he leaves office and inflation has bounced as low as 1.2 and as high as 6.0 in eight years his policies have produced inflation and deflation and the value of a dollar has decreased by 40%. Averages over an Administration can be extremely misleading without context.

Card Check does not force anything on anyone it ALLOWS a group who is voting as to the establisment of a Union to do it by card and an employer must accept the vote if those voting on a union by 50% CHOOSE a secret ballot they may do so. Current law allows an employer to refuse Card Check results even if those applying unanimously decide that is how they want voting handled. The amount of distortion provided by right wing information sources is simply stunning.

JKHayes

Well, you got what you voted in. Just three months ago they were screaming about how Bush had ran up the deficit. But know they are stating.... don't worry about the deficit. We need to spend.... spend.... spend.

Yesterday Tom Dashel went so far as stating we need to overhaul our medical system and take away the individuals right to choose. Yes.... Big Brother can make better decisions than we can. Well America, you got what you voted for. A real mess. It's funny how when Bush's  stimulas package was called a failure by the Democrats, Obama is doing a similar thing but with one twist. Middle class Americanise really wont get a dime. The lower class and welfare recipients will be getting the bulk of his package. Yea... they are the ones who will actually bust the economy. Ya know like.... actually buy and pay for their home... car... boats.... credit card payments.  

Obama... our God who walks on water that voted a million dollars a day of pork barrel is leading our nation and is know using scare tatics.... lies.... more lies and most of all, his thug buddies are in control of both the house and senate. They know pledge to stop all pork barrel.... Yea right. It will still be there, they will just be able to hide it easier since they are in control.

I think we need to start praying and stand up for what is right. That even means starting to throw these bum's out of office. I'm proud of being an american and I can't stand to see what they are doing to our childrens... grandchildren and future generations futures. Who will pay for all this mess. It sure wont be the politician or lower class citizens will it.

"...the private sector, typically the answer, cannot do what is needed now...only government can provide the short-term boost necessary."

Looks like we are on our way...

Finally we will have a president who wants to spend money on America.  That president is Obama.

Bush and Cheney spent our taxpayer dollars everywhere else BUT America:

Iraq -the immoral war, over $1 Trillion

Africa- $700 Billion

Mexico -$1.2 Billion

The bridge collasped in Minnesota killing Americans.

And I don't know about your roads, but the roads in my state are full of potholes and barely driveable.  The freeways and highways are even worse.

Hurrah for Obama for looking out for America instead of always throwing our taxpayer dollars overseas.

WHAT DO WE HAVE TO SHOW FOR THE TRILLIONS OF DEFICIT DOLLARS THAT GEORGE W BUSH MADE??  WHAT?

The faster they want to rush it the more likely it is just a scam. We will have no choice in the matter. They will reject it a first the rally through the nite and pass it just like all the other crap they have lately. We are idiots for keeping any of them in office. It is embarrassing to be an American these days. We are the joke of the world and it does not matter which of these clowns is leading because they are all the same.

Greg,

Give him a chance? This shouldn't be a matter of comparing him to Bush on his own. This is about a solution without all the bickering between the jackass and the elephant. I don't care if he has a little R or D after his name. We need a solution and if his solution is to run up a deficit that is 20% of what Bush in eight years during Obama's first days in office it makes me wonder how you can't see what's going wrong here.

But, whatever, keep saying Bush was worse if that pads your ego but it ain't going to do anything for the situation at hand.

To all those Republicans blaming Obama for this mess, see this:

Something needs to be done to clean up Bush and Cheney's HORRIBLE MESS.  Bush should have been impeached for his negligence.

After you read the economic damage the Republicans have done for the past 8 years, what can you say to defend them?

Let me tell you about Republican "free for all" spending:

Bush did three things to skyrocket the debt from $5.7 trillion to $10 trillion:

1. He lowered taxes on the rich (by far the biggest item).
2. He invaded Iraq instead of winning in Afghan-Pakistan (another $600 B).
3. He deregulated Wall Street speculators. That bailout has now "invested" $1T

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

WASHINGTON - In the nation's first-ever $3 trillion budget proposal, President Bush seeks to seal his legacy

The 2009 spending plan sent to Congress on Monday will project huge budget deficits, around $400 billion for this year and next and more than double the 2007 deficit of $163 billion. But even those estimates could prove too low given the rapidly weakening economy and the total costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which Bush does not include in his request for the budget year beginning Oct. 1.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22981657

 President Bush’s return to huge deficit spending represents a sharp break from the recent past. During President Clinton’s second term, the government actually ran on-budget surpluses and began paying down the national debt. The new level of deficit spending exceeds the previous records set during the Reagan and George Herbert Walker Bush administrations, when on-budget deficits averaged 25 percent and 28 percent of on-budget spending, respectively.

http://www.ctj.org/html/debt0603.htm

Bush spending up to 5 times more than Clinton
Reagan Revolution architect calls it 'era of obese government'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51342

We might end up with nice roads and bridges but unemployed and hungry people that have nothing to do with construction. How about just giving that money DIRECTLY back to taxpayers who would be able to spend it around, boost retail, real estate and sales taxes? Giving taxpayers $600 or $1200 is something but not good enough to really excite the economy.

To Arthur-379160:

Where do you get your information that "Clinton had huge deficits when he left office?"

Where?  Please provide your source.

I can show you why you are wrong:

President Bush inherited a budget surplus of $128 billion from the Clinton administration when Bush took office in 2001 but has since posted a budget deficit every year.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/28/2009.deficit/

And what were you screaming in regards to Bush running up the deficit? Oh, that's right. You didn't say anything because you belived Bush was doing the right thing. But now BO is doing it and it is wrong as sin to you.

What were you going to tell your grandchildren if a Republican had been elected and did the same thing BO is doing now? I have a feeling  you would say "I'm sorry kids, we had to fix the financial situation we were in.

Throw the bums out? You are talking about the Republicans in congress too, right? Nope, didn't think so.

Sour grapes anyone?

To Daniel-521176:

Obama is giving taxpayers rebates.

However, the answer is not to give money away.  The answer is to provide jobs.

Building roads and bridges provides jobs.

And, we will have something to show for our money.

Under Bush, we have nothing to show for all of our trillion dollar deficit that Bush and the Republicans created.

To Citzenpain:

Thank you.

Where were all of your "fiscally restrained" Republicans during the last 8 years?

Why weren't you crying then about spend spend spend?

Why now, just because it is Obama and not McCain trying to clean up the Republican mess?

The only thing you will have to show for your money is higher taxes and welfare recipiants who will not apply for the so called jobs Obama is lying about.

If he is going to create all these jobs then those recieving any kind of assistance needs to report for work.  this alone would fix 25% of every states budgets. 

This is a joke.  Obama promised change to all you who voted for the idiot and what did you get....................A giant hand out that will NOT work.

It was said GWB wished he had 4 more years to fix the economy....

If I were the Prsesident I would buy out all consumer credit card debt. Whatever your debt was three months ago would be paid off. Consumers would be my number one priority.

SeanFry wrote:

As a manager of a restaurant and of many other restaurants in the past every kitchen in the southern united states is employed by illegal immigrants. And i have personally looked at there paychecks and they DO NT PAY FEDERAL TAXES. If the do not pay the S.S. or Medicare than the employer is also not matching what they should have been paying. Which means we have millions of immigrants and employers not paying the taxes they should. If they were employing true citizens that paid taxes that would be a huge jump in taxes. Not only would we not have a S.S. problem but we would have a surplus in those areas. About 15% of labor in restaurants comes from kitchen while only 4% comes from the front where the servers, hosts, and bartenders are. The kitchen is where restaurants pay there labor and also where they are getting away with tax evasion. on a slow day we pay the kitchen $300.00 in labor and the front we pay about $80.00. The $80 is getting taxed (your white server), the $300 (your mexican cook) is not being taxed. Thats alot of tax dollars that could help in this time if they are given citizenship. If not and they are deported it is alot of job creation. Either way something has to happen.

That's one hell of a generalization to state every restaurant only employs illegal immigrants. Around here in this Southern state most fastfood restaurants are staffed by high school kids or college students trying to supplement their income to pay for an education. Next, those restaurants you managed for must be some pretty shady operations. How did you even employ those people in the first place without a SS#? Further, your assumption that ALL illegals don't pay taxes is erroneous even by the IRS' own reports and in fact amounts to somewhat of a windfall because they can't/don't file returns. In fact a huge number do pay taxes for the simple reason they hope to avoid detection this way. You'll find many of them simply put down : SSN Applied For which is the course of action recommended by the INS and the IRS for people attempting to obtain legitimate status. And last but not least, maybe you need to do some simple math. The sector working in those jobs don't pay taxes as it is, legitimate citizens or not. So there would not be any kind of windfall. The reverse in fact, we'd end up having to pay retirement benefits, EIC, etc. Note I am NOT condoning illegal immigration or the fact some don't pay taxes, but do not believe the hogwash that it would generate such a huge portion of revenue.

Jim Hayes-375865

Eel8, Roy Wilson ect,

"Using flawed and manipulated figures from cherry picked data"

The "Misery Index" was popularly coined by Jimmy Carter to win the election in 1976, and is a good broad overall measure of how the economy is doing, and yes, Carter did inherit some bad economic times, but he made it FAR WORSE. As to the "average" economic indicators, I think most people would agree that 8 years in office is plenty of time to determine the performance of a President (Clinton and Bush). If you want to consider what they inherited, keep in mind that Clinton inherited a recovered economy and left an economy that was heading into recession.

Unemployment and Inflation are two widely accepted overall indicators of economic progress, and by those two components of the "Misery Index", Bush's "average" Misery Index (over all 8 years) will be barely over 8% (the second best in 40 years), and Clinton's "average" was only slightly better (7.8%). Jimmy Carter's was by far the worst average at 16.27%.

Even if you consider the other two major economic indicators of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and Long Term Interest Rates, Clinton was about 1.5% better than Bush on GDP, but Bush was about 1.5% better than Clinton on average Interest Rates, so their overall economic performance was essentially identical. And remember, Bush had to deal with the effects of 9/11, with its persistent increase in Unemployment of 1.5% that lasted several years, or his numbers would have been BETTER than Clinton's.

And, contrary to popular opinion, Clinton left the National Debt $1.6 Trillion higher than when he entered office.

All of my figures are from Federal Government data. Let's see how Obama stacks up in a few years.

Obama is a chalatan, he ran as having all the answers to all the questions. he was going to get out of iraq pare down afgan, fix health care cut taxes raise taxes etc etc etc, now that he is getting into the stop talking start doing all of a sudden he is dancing. it is easy to critisize now he must act. what does he do???lower expectations...wonderful. now he wants to fix social security. when bush propsed that he said do not touch!!! wow how this phoney has changed. you stuipi sucker for believeing hi. I sincerely basck this man and hope that he can fix the problems. start by puting the blame on dodd and frank. we all must pull together here for this game is just starting

Wow . . . This is really impressive!!  I've never seen sooo many people with advanced economics degrees!!  How can everything that has been done up to this point be blamed on a guy that has not even taken office yet?!?  Please be realistic!

I am the definition of an Independent.  I vote for the guy/gal that I believe will do their absolute best with what they are given to work with.  Obama has been given a pile of crap and I personally believe from everything that I have seen so far that he is legitimately trying to work with everyone concerned to do what is necessary for the long term interests of this country.  This catastrophe is not his fault anymore than it is yours, mine or your neighbors.  We all own a piece of the blame - that's reality!  Greed is to blame, corrupt politicians and a broken political system are to blame.

The worst thing we can do is sit on our a$$es and do not but point fingers at each other.  This man has a plan that he has invited everyone to work on and consulted with experts on.  I don't know about you people but I am VERY nervous about what I am seeing.  The economy is truly in very bad condition - the worst that I have seen in my life-time and unless we do something it has plenty of room to get worse.  1 in every 10 of all of you could literally be out of a job in the next two years if no action is taken.  Are you really willing to take that chance with your families and your neighbors families?

Yes that is a lot of money but do some research!  When our ecomony is bustling it dwarfs the 800 billion that is the current suggested investment.  This country's gross domestic product is currently about 13.8 Trillion (and this has been a bad year).  Are you aware that the total current personal debt in this country is over 2.5 Trillion!  That's just the money that you and I owe.  That alone dwarfs the 800 billion.  It will cost us a hell of a lot more in terms of lost GDP than it will to invest this money now.  The economy is more than able to pay this money back AS LONG AS OUR POLITICIANS CAN MAINTAIN A LEVEL OF FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY IN TIMES OF SURPLUS!!!!  But now isn't it really up to us to make sure they do?!!!

In short, this is ugly but it is necessary.  There really isn't any other good viable solutions.  I honestly think that this man (Obama) is doing his best and working with everyone that is willing to work with him.  You can either be a part of the problem and point your fingers at everyone else playing the blame game just as we always have (it worked so well then) or we can get behind this plan and try our damndest to make it work. 

This country needs a leader right now!!!!  He's appears to be trying so I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and get behind him.  Those of you who do not- well you had better hope that those of us who do . . .  succeed.

Under..  Well said!! I see every day on this vine all the rocket scientists blaming Obama for this mess we are in, and are so caught up in either their own miserable lives or just plain racists that they dont even want to give this a chance.  Obama did NOT create this mess we are in... greed and corruption did.. and 3 guesses who knew for 8 years we were going down the tubes....

With some of the postings I see here, I seriously hope some of the writers do not drive a car... ever.. they dont have the smarts for it.

Rhonda, Rhonda, Rhonda......

"Obama is giving taxpayers rebates.

However, the answer is not to give money away.  The answer is to provide jobs.

Building roads and bridges provides jobs.

And, we will have something to show for our money."

 FYI....Those tax rebates come from?...The people's taxes.....Who Pays for government job's?(roads,schools,public buildings,military pay,etc.) The people's taxes do. Now in case the picture you obviously missed again...ranting the rave "all hail Obama"....is this.

Our taxes pay for roads, schooling, welfare, police, and military salary etc, etc, etc. Ok, we are trillions more in debt, more military is going to be going into Afghanistan as another "surge", we are going to pay people to fix roads, out of our own pocket, and the list just keeps rippin' right on down the road. Now, we get X amount backin rebate stimulus (something everyone threw a huge hissy fit when Bush did it,  Rhonda you were one of the 1st, and now we get another, only it's going to be a larger one). How is that going to do anything better for us? It isn't. Ok it's what $500 instead of $300 this time? Look what it did the last time. Band-aids don't stick to bloody wounds, and the lame excuse we'll worry about that later, as Nobama, and his new crack-head team of henchmen mentioned in previous statements, is not going to solve anything.

 Here's the change I see coming...All of our tax dollars being funnelled into welfare, into government pork, and employing even more unneeded people to do nothing in our government outside of collect a welfare check! Less restrictions on employment, and more Unions sucking at our necks. Back when Regan lifted a lot of the restrictions of the monopoly game wall street was playing previously, he did in good faith, and it didn't work, and i see less restrictions coming, in the name of a government payoff. He plan's on increasing our military by 7 fold by the year 2011....why? Because by then our economy will be so far in the hole, and people out of work, there's gong to be enough chaos to invoke military curfew etc. Think I'm wrong? lol....There is no other reason applicable one can imagine that would otherwise explain this.

 This means our government is going to be on the brink of economic collapse, and our country will be able to do nothing but starve, and go homeless, while those on the government side of the line get paid daily. Wait, soon, there is going to be GREAT change, indeed. It will not be the change(s), that were promised. They will not be the changes of the people, not the changes of greater freedom, as all the followers expetc. It will be the change of oppression of the people outside the Nobama run centers. Some people need to take a good hard look at or go to school and learn something about economics........cause this is where our change is heading.

 Re-doing the restrictions on conglomerates, make new holes for the little business's to bloom, get rid of welfare, and Union's. Instead of bailing out companies, let the government take them over if that's the case. Re-open the doors to let the government build the cars, hire employee's, and reshape the company so it can be sold to someone who can, and will handle/ manage it better, the employee's. Take people like Madoff, and whip them without mercy till they pay the debt they owe to the people they ripped off. (5 years...what a joke!!!). Quit coddling the people who can buy their way out, and make them every bit as accountable for what they do,as we are. That's a government with change.

rhonda rahn,

go log into the AICPA's website, where a study done by a major accounting firm shows that clinton's budget surplus was purely illusory.

those road building and bridge building jobs are mostly created in the 'out' years of any infrastructure bill. about 20-25% is spent in year 1, less than 20% in year 2, and the remainder in year 3 and out. by that time, the economy is already in it's normal upturn, having begun the upswing in year 2

To ROY WILSON-336103:

You are saying that Clinton left a high deficit without providing where you got that information.

Without proof, you are only blowing smoke. STOP SPEADING UNTRUTHS.

I  can show you why you are wrong, ROY WILSON-336103:

President Bush inherited a budget surplus of $128 billion from the Clinton administration when Bush took office in 2001 but has since posted a budget deficit every year.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/28/2009.deficit/

To wildweasel66-358178:

Uh huh.  Then why do you not provide a link?  Why don't you support your statement with facts?

See my above post to Roy Wilson, wildweasel66-358178.

President Clinton left a budget surplus.  Bush created the hugest deficit in history.

That is why Bush is the most unpopular president in history.  He deserves it.

To mega-lodon:

You said: "Our taxes pay for roads, schooling, welfare, police, and military salary etc, etc, etc."

Oh is that so? Then why did that bridge collaspe in Minnesota? Why are our bridges so unsafe and uninspected all across America?

Why are our roads in such disrepair?

Why, mega-lodon?

I can tell you why.

Because under the Bush administration, TAXES WERE NOT SPENT ON BRIDGES OR ROADS.

Under the last 8 years of Republican reign, TAXES WERE SPENT IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

Iraq -- trillions

Africa -- $700 billion

Mexico -- $1.8 billion

And there was MORE, much more, all spent overseas by BUSH and the other Republicans for the past 8 years.

Now, Obama wants to spend taxpayer dollars in AMERICA.  What a novel concept.

"After you read the economic damage the Republicans have done for the past 8 years, what can you say to defend them?"

That we now have a Democrat in office looking to cause even GREATER economic damage.  The past doesn't excuse the present.  Of course, we're not looking at the damage that the Republicans have done over the past eight years, we're looking at the damage that one of the most business liberals in US history has done over the past eight years.  Calling yourself a Republican does NOT make you one.  Think about it, what has caused these problems?  The war is not an excuse, it was a single digit percentage of our spending, the cost over several years being less than many small time wasted projects.  The real answer, Bush's world record corporate tax rate, his record business taxes, his record take and spend policies.  Do you really mean to tell me that someone who gives us a WORLD RECORD corporate tax rate is a Republican, or that he's just out to make the rich even more wealthy.  We're suffering because he's been screwing over businesses left and right, and we're facing the penalties.  He did this after inheriting a horrible economy, the worst time to enact such high costs.  No, Clinton did not give us a positive, the one and only period of negative growth outside of the Great Depression was during Clinton's administration, the huge losses on the part of the US government covered over and compensated for by the tech bubble, a non US contributor to our economy, providing tens of thousands of jobs and bringing in billions of dollars from overseas.  Once the bubble burst, while he was still in office, since his administration had absolutely no fallback plan to keep the economy going, hoping that the bubble wouldn't burst until the next President and all blame for the following problems could go to that person (although he simply lied and made up a story about a surplus when he left office), our economy began to tank quickly.  We were still riding high on the new job formations, but before he even left companies were beginning to struggle to maintain them.  Bush came in and was faced with the growing crisis created before him.  His solution, well, simply lighter versions of what Obama is proposing.  Increase taxation on businesses, take more money and throw it out there to create jobs, even though the money used was taken from the job creators. 

Obviously, his plan to fix Clinton's lack of preparedness for the bubble burst failed miserably.  And now we have Obama, and what is he doing?  Taking Bush's proposals word for word, simply changing the numbers to make them even higher, and claim them not only as his own, but as being magically different from Bush's near identical policies.  So here's the real question, if Republicans have destroyed the economy over the past eight years, why is Obama copying Bush's policies nearly word for word and claiming them as his own.  This means that either Obama must in actuality be a Republican, or Bush must have in reality been a business Democrat.  Since we're talking about taking more and more and more from businesses, I'm going to have to go with the latter.  We had a state Republican (pro-life, anti-gay marriage, etc.) but federal Democrat (excessive taxation and spending) as a President.  Now we have a state half Republican-half Democrat (anti-gay marriage but pro-stem cell, and back and forth on abortion) but federal Democrat (excessive taxation and spending) as a President.  Since the federal policies are the responsibilities of the President, and both Bush and Obama are the same on the federal level, a bit under 53% of the population just voted for a more expensive Bush.  So who exactly needs to be defended?  Certainly not the Republicans, whose values were entirely ignored over the last eight years.  We were just bombarded with proof beyond measure that the liberal value of tax and spend on the wealthy and businesses fails, miserably.

"After you read the economic damage "liberal" business policies, not Republican (no matter what title the President decided to give himself) have done for the past 8 years, what can you say to defend those values?"

Rhonda,

While Clinton "Budget" had a surplus, it was only because he borrowed more from Social Security then he spent. The National Debt went up every year of Clinton tenure. Granted the smallest increase was about $18 billion, it is still an increase in debt.

http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

Also nice little aside from your article to Roy,

While the deficit would be a record in absolute dollar terms, Nussle said it would be below the 2004 deficit, 3.6 percent of GDP, and the record deficit of 1983, 6 percent of GDP, when compared with the size of the overall U.S. economy.

No Rhonda , i'll tell you why the bridge collapsed...because some Union welfare inspector paid BY, the GOVERNMENT, and more likely, thru a UNION, didn't do his job like he was supposed to! That's why, watch or read the news before you rant on it, you might learn a thing, or perhaps 2, and yes OUR TAXES, pay for those things and more. Remember the social economics class i mentioned a bit ago. Don't stop there....had not out taxes, paid for the salaries of GOVENMENT OFFICIALS, and the perks,  or the military was not paid (i do think i also said he wanted that to be increased by 7 fold by 2011), and roads fixed/built, then those things would not have been done. Perhaps a wee bit of research before you tell how tax money didn't go to what and went where? Those state federal taxes did go, and some just didn't do the job they were hired to do....kinda like a union worker, or welfare mom.

oh....btw....the US still has the safest bridges in the world, and they were all REINSPECTED after the collapse, and proof to that reinspection, had to be given. I do remember someone for fact being fired in wisconsin, for just takeing pictures, and sitting in his truck while he took a nap. All the bridges THAT person had to ALL  be reinspected, and it put the state deadline back by about a month. Remember that?

  Perhaps a recall on who actually was saying ok to all the oversea's spending too.....psssst....it was who controlled the house, and as well a HINT it wasn't the republican's.....(today's word boy's and girl's....Democrat)

All this seems to be is another crock the government drums up to seize more control over the masses.  We've already guaranteed our grandchildren will have half their paychecks taken from them because of one stimulus package.  How does Obama know how long this recession is going to last?  What now he's a fortune teller?  No one knows and if we as the American people allow another package, I truly, deeply feel sorry for the people two generations from now that are gunna fit the bill.  Its bad enough that one third of us pay the way for everyone else.  Can u imagine 50% of your paycheck being taken away for something you weren't even around to have a say in.  Good luck to our grandchildren.

Why are we building more roads and bridges anyways? Why not invest those funds into building a really good public transportation system. Our reliance on oil for everyone to sit alone in their car on newly built 8 lane superhighways does nothing. Provide funds for the development of MagLev trains, monorails etc and soon you won't need the same amount of funds to repair roads.

mainebound --Why are you injecting RACE into this?  I am not racist.  As far as I am concerned, Obama "lost" his black/brown/caramel  "color" when he became a politician.  He is no different from any other politician.  His race or color make no difference to me.  The only color I want to see  right now is GREEN in my wallet!!!!!!!

To Under-whelmed:

Thank you.  Yours is the best post on this entire Newsvine.  Bravo.

You said:

"Wow . . . This is really impressive!!  I've never seen sooo many people with advanced economics degrees!!  How can everything that has been done up to this point be blamed on a guy that has not even taken office yet?!?  Please be realistic!

I am the definition of an Independent.  I vote for the guy/gal that I believe will do their absolute best with what they are given to work with.  Obama has been given a pile of crap and I personally believe from everything that I have seen so far that he is legitimately trying to work with everyone concerned to do what is necessary for the long term interests of this country.  "

I'm very tired of seeing the fat cats stuffing dollars into their pockets as they smile kindly to the rest of us. Where did the money go? How was it spent or hidden? Why aren't the banks, as required by the bail-out, lending money to people? There is most certainly a 2 level society, those that have and the rest of us who have not.

The money we, the tax payers, gave the banks hasn't been effective because they have chosen not to lend to the average citizen. Why is that? Because most normal, middle class, people are in debt up to their eyelids because of the way things have been. Some credit scores have fallen and the banks don't want to lend to those kind of people. Why did those credit scores fall? Because noone could afford to wipe their nose for the last 5 years and they ended using (and abusing) whatever credit sources they could. Now that the credit card bills have piled up, they can't afford to pay them and are in a world of hurt. So, what does our government do about it? They give out tax breaks and attempt to create jobs....how about addressing the problem of today? How about going after the source of the lack of spending, how about getting the people out of the jams that they are in. If they are going to spend tax payers money, why don't they give it back to the tax payers so they can get straight. If they want to see increased spending to stimulate the economy, what better way than giving it to the people to spend. Whether they pay off bills (which will clean up the "credit crunch") or pay down on their mortgages (which will help the "housing issue") or just spend it. All of the issues we are facing could be addressed by giving the people the money. But we will just keep throwing money out the window, give it to the banks and let them get themselves cleaned up and forget about the one's who are really hurting. Whose money is it anyway?

ROY,

All indicators have some level of validity and all show something, but taken as stand alone statistics they just beg to be manipulated. The misery index which you frequently post is one of the worst. As a snapshot of a day , month or year in history they serve some purpose. As an indicator for an administration they are useless, 1972-1976 Nixon/Ford was 16.00 and 1976-1980 Carter was 16.20 this does not mean they were in any way the same. Reagan was 12.4 and Bush I was 12.0 does this mean Bush years were better? Historically Reagans 12.4 is way below average most Republicans hold his years up as an ideal, Clinton averaged 7.8 reducing what he received by 33%.

These figures should be taken only in relation to what came before and what followed. More significant is debt and government growth. Since 1960 debt has risen from 358 billion to 10.645 trillion dollars of this of this 8.6 trillion ocurred during Republican Administrations, the current government spending stands at 2.0 trillion dollars since 1968 government spending stood at 178 billion dollars of that increase 1.5 trillion ocurred during Republican presidencies.

Republican economic policies by any realistic scale have not been a success, only 5 of the 8 Reagan years can be viewed as good years for the majority of citizens and that came with an incredible rate of spending , Keynesian in the extreme.

JKHayes

Why are you - both sides - still bashing Bush or running Obama into the ground? You sound like Congress. It seems that the idiot gene runs through our society. We can't afford to blame anyone any more....it's done....we're in a real bind.

If we don't become Americans first, then China and all the other countries who we owe money to should just take over. I'm sure you, Republicans and Democrats, would just love a dictatorship where you wouldn't be allowed to express your opinions. Freedom isn't only the ability to be dumb and intractable, it's the right to come together to preserve our way of life.

If any of you think you want to disparage the United States and can't stand the way we will apply CPR to the economy, health care, jobs, and everything else....then leave. I'm sure, with your very clean records, you will be able to get or use your passport. Then you can try to open your mouths and probably get a gun stuffed in it.

Obama is now so desparate that he is relying on Bush's favorite MO, fear.

Oh, puhleeze, just what we need, 8 more years of Bush.

Rhonda Rahn

To ROY WILSON-336103:

"You are saying that Clinton left a high deficit without providing where you got that information."

Here's the website below. It on Wikipedia, and shows that when Clinton was elected at the end of 1992, the National Debt was $4.001 Trillion, and when Bush was elected at the end of 2000, the National Debt had increased to $5.628 Trillion, a net INCREASE under Clinton of over $1.6 Trillion.

Let's not twist the truth by taking only a small portion of Clinton's overall performance on the National Debt. I think we should look at the OVERALL performance of each President, not little snippets taken out of context.LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

They must rush this piece of work through so the public doesn't have time to dissect it before Obama signs it into law and so that enough time will pass that the negative impact will be forgotten by the majority of voters when Senators come up for re-election. The whole bunch of them are nothing more than highly paid-legalized con men.

I have an idea : lets abolish the Federal Income Tax ( and the Federal Reserve ) and just let Americans KEEP more of their money.  Enact a national sales tax, so only consumption is penalized, and put a freeze on ALL NEW SPENDING.  Get the debt paid down, and make deficit spending illegal in the future.  Can we expect this from a Democrat?! Laughable.  The reality is that Bush bankrupted his party's ideals, and we handed the White House over to the other party who is all about spending TOO.

Correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of this.

The "government" conceived the plan, (The Community Re-investment Act), which led to this economic meltdown. Then they passed laws to make mortgage lenders carry it out. They stood by and watched as it was failing and some participated in it's failure. When it crashed they rushed to pass emergency legislation and threw 700 billion tax payer dollars at it without really knowing how the money would be spent or even who was going to get it. They had to tag another 150 billion in pork on the original 700 billion in order to buy the votes to pass it. 

Now we are being told that only government can solve this problem by throwing more money at it as quickly as possible or the consequences will be dire. I'm sorry but I don't care whether this is a republican or democrat plan or both but someone in Washington has got to stop this runaway train for which the answer to every problem contains the words "billion dollars". I was hoping that Obama would actually change the way things are done in Washington but as far as watching how our money is spent I can see it is more of the same.

Total 2008 job loss: 2.6 million

Annual loss is biggest since the end of World War II. Payrolls shrink by 524,000 in December, and unemployment rate rises to 7.2%.

By David Goldman, CNNMoney.com staff writer

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/09/news/economy/jobs_december/index.htm

Obama team plans bailout overhaul

President-elect's economic team considers the expansion of the $700B bailout beyond Wall Street.

By Jessica Yellin, CNN

January 9, 2009: 9:40 AM ET

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/09/news/economy/bailout_overhaul/index.htm

A sobering look from humankind will not come about until recognition that there is but One God and apart from Him humankind nor its ‘questionable’ humanity can do nothing, absolutely nothing but fail. There are no stimulus packages that will ever supersede the fate of humankind brought upon it! There are no Presidential or Congressional mandates governing the Will of God or His prophetic Word that humankind and its humanity seeks to silence. However, there is something that can be done however humankind in its totality will never submit to doing because it would require admitting that humankind is not supreme!

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [Romans 1:24-32 cf. Leviticus 20 (vv. 9-21), Deuteronomy 22 (vv.5, 22), etc.]

No matter the argument, translation or interpretation the meaning remains the same!

King James Bible
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Bible in Basic English
Be not tricked; God is not made sport of: for whatever seed a man puts in, that will he get back as grain.

Young's Literal Translation
Be not led astray; God is not mocked; for what a man may sow -- that also he shall reap,

Geneva Study Bible

{6} Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

(6) He commends liberality towards the poor, and first of all chides those who were not ashamed to pretend this and that, and all because they would not help their neighbours, as though they could deceive God. And afterward he compares alms to a spiritual sowing which will have a most plentiful harvest, so that it will be very profitable: and compares being a covetous miser to sowing carnally, from which nothing can be gathered but such things as fade away, and eventually perish.

People's New Testament

6:7 Be not deceived. Men often are.

God is not mocked. They do fancy that God may be mocked. The immutable law of the spiritual kingdom shows that he is not.

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. A law not only of the vegetable world, but of our bodies and spirits. Habit is only an illustration of this law. The delirium tremens on the one hand, and the purity of the aged saint on the other are due to the action of this law.

Geneva Study Bible

{6} Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

(6) He commends liberality towards the poor, and first of all chides those who were not ashamed to pretend this and that, and all because they would not help their neighbours, as though they could deceive God. And afterward he compares alms to a spiritual sowing which will have a most plentiful harvest, so that it will be very profitable: and compares being a covetous miser to sowing carnally, from which nothing can be gathered but such things as fade away, and eventually perish.

People's New Testament

6:7 Be not deceived. Men often are.

God is not mocked. They do fancy that God may be mocked. The immutable law of the spiritual kingdom shows that he is not.

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. A law not only of the vegetable world, but of our bodies and spirits. Habit is only an illustration of this law. The delirium tremens on the one hand, and the purity of the aged saint on the other are due to the action of this law.

rhonda,

log in to the AICPA's website. the proof is there.

otherwise quit cutting and pasting talking points.

Wasn't part of the call for change not to have an administration that resulted to fear mongering? Did the memo advising all to panic get lost?

Why isn't there a call for people who owe massive debt to get a second job.

hold on 1 second there i think you misworded yourself Athena. The consumer isnt the one to put in with the government. The consumer is the one who goes out every day to earn a living. The conglomerates like Ford Chrysler, GM, Fannie/Freddie and all the way  up and down the pikes of wallstreet, are the ones you can put in with that. WE are the ones getting hammered on this, while they have million dollar homes, lux cars/jets/yachts, and take the sweetest vacations to any far away land they feel like on a whim!

 If in case anyone hasn't noticed as well, there has been band-aid , after band-aid placed over a ever bleeding wound called our economy since at least the 30's. It never was fixed, it was prolonged, and now, it's not just bleeding, it's infected with greed and coruption. Its too late to fix, and more likely too late to even amputate to even save.

 So outside of everyone includeing myself wasteing breath, lets look at the next 4 yrs of hurry this thru, rush that past, and we better or else cause we see where it's getting us and has gotten us. Go Nobama!!! they luv u man!!!

who puts the outlandish intrest rates for money used on those cards?

no but credit card companies, along with banks say"look if u get a credit card, this will boost your rateing, and then we can do this for you, instead of what we were originally talking about" kinda like holding an apple in front of the horse and saying, "here, ya go boy, you can look,  but dont touch". Then to cap it off, they charge you for not useing it...so then kinda screwed if ya do, shafted if you don't.

ya, forgot to add, every time the horse takes a bite from the apple, he gets 1 lash from the whip

and as far as unremitting doom goes, both, thats right both parties put america where it is today. You think for 1 minute everyone is going to go out and buy something, and stick this money into the economy? No way! a vast majority are going to invest in where they live to pay a month or so of rent or morgage, a car payment, or on a place they can actually afford to live in. I'd say maybe if they are lucky, 1/3 might make its way back into the economy, and thats really pushing it. Who in thier right mind with things the way they are, and as tight as they are is going to waste it on something that they dont need. Not a whole lot, and if they do it will be a very small fraction of what they recieve. Come now, you can't be that ignorant of the way humans are at this point? It's starting to come down to surviveing, and you dont survive, by spending money on something you will lose in the near future. The entire economic system needs to be overhauled and re written, from taxes to wages, and how those monies are going to be spent outside of pork projects.